>>103959502
>c# bros... dont tell the other langs about our embarrassing gc times please )': (6% of the frame budget at 120 fps)
Now post your memory usage, fellow rider enjoyer.

>>103965435
I'm just curious how much is he allocating every tick.

>>103965424
/gedg/ is not needed now you can just create games with AI.

>>103965438
local variables aren't even garbage collected so he'd have to be doing something double retarded like allocating memory every single frame

>>103965454
Yeah, but we need help running the ai

>>103965465
>he'd have to be doing something double retarded like allocating memory every single frame
Maybe is not that retarded if the GC can take it or your third party lib does it and you can't control it. I don't know, people like to talk a lot about GC without actual experience, this anon can enlighten use.

>>103965498
allocating memory is slow, if you're allocating every frame you're doing something wrong, period

>>103965498
nobody has ever had a single positive experience with GC
>>103965509
allocating memory is very fast, but I'm not a retard.

Post your game not using OOP and GC, and I'll post the list of games using them. I'm waiting.
Nodev speaking is so tiresome. You like to waste time of shit the GC could do for you, good, don't pretend you are doing anyone a favor.

>>103965424
Why do inexperienced devs (usually first timers) insist on making a 3d game?

>>103965579
Why do nocoders insist that adding one more scalar to vectors and one more row/column to matrices makes the identical, fundamental math equations harder to comprehend?

>>103965579
"first timer" who wants to make a 3D game here.
It's because 2D indie games are an oversaturated market.

>>103965509
'allocating memory' is fast in gcd languages
>if you're allocating every frame you're doing something wrong, period
t. has never programmed in his life

>>103965676
You are not going to have more luck with 3D either. Besides, I wouldn't be concerned about the market if I don't even know how to make a 2D game. Anyway, good luck to you anon.

>>103965679
language doesn't affect this at all

been working on a thing
this is from a few days ago, now it can draw a minimap too
it runs ok. it can run on a potato, even in termux on my phone, but only at a significantly lower res than in that video
i don't really know where i'm going to take it, i have maybe a handful of half baked ideas for games. i still can't do anything other than walls, but i can do dynamic walls and dynamic colours and collisions and stuff, which might be enough for some simple games
i've also been toying with generating sound samples in bash to pipe to aplay. the perf i'm getting is definitely good enough, but i don't know what i'm doing there either, and i have even fewer ideas on what to do with sound either
gib ideas plz

>>103965705
It does https://tooslowexception.com/allocation-is-cheap-until-it-is-not/

>>103961596
What's RAII ever done to you, Frosch?

>>103965796
that's a cool blogpost that I didn't read, but allocation is always cheap on my machine

>>103965542
I don't need a garbage collector, RAII handles it.

>>103965825
He's a C-using (aka, retarded) nodev attention whore and possibly a tranny.

>>103965880
Who is talking about you?

Knockouts implemented. Recording it was so hard because this rat caught me all the time. AI has several levels of alert, and on medium and above it will have 360º vision on, so you need to approach it from behind will it is unaware. Only then you can knockout the bastard.

>>103965542
Lots of games are made in C++ you know

>>103966051
The problem here are nodevs obsessed with managed languages. If you are making another 3D prototype in C++ congratulations, just don't sperg because people finish their games using lua or gamemaker.

Just write in Zig, you have no GC, you have a defer statement to run cleanup code upon exiting the current block, you have an errdefer statement to run cleanup code only if the current function ends up returning an error, you have an arena allocator that you can use to deallocate memory after every tick at once (or just mark it as free for reuse without actually calling system allocator's free).

>>103965779
puzzle games don't rely heavily on graphics
i like what you're doing

>>103966175
Odin is better than Zig

>>103966175
>unused variables are compiler errors
>devs are extremely against removing this
dropped that language after writing 5 loc
wait for jai or use odin

>>103966193
I don't like it at all personally
>>103966208
This isn't even a real problem, the fact that Zig's language server barely works is way worse

>>103965542
you like to waste player's time instead, I hope you expect to be paid $60 for your 2D slop that doesn't deserve to be bought even for $3.99

ok but unironically
how come there is still no better language than C++ for game dev?

>103965985
C-using retard detected. You will never ship a game.

If any of you fags were actually shipping 3D games, you wouldn't be writing your own game engine. It's just a waste of time.

>>103966334
>writing own game engine
how many times will I have to repeat that you don't write "engine", it's not a car you little retarded nigger monkey, you just write a while loop and shuffle some triangles in buffers to display things to the user, it's not rocket science, kill yourself you pathetic, worthless, inbred mouthbreathing subhuman tranimal.

>>103966310
I'd say C# is better overall but C++ is more essential

>>103966360
please be mindful of the quality of your posts

>>103966360
>you just write a while loop and shuffle some triangles in buffers to display things to the user
And doing that is a massive waste of time if you actually want to ship 3D games that people will play. Which part do you not understand?

>>103966377
I hope you're pushing out a new game every 3 months, because if not, it seems like having a "prebuilt game engine" didn't save any time at all.

>>103966383
Since you spent over a decade tinkertrannying with Unity and still haven't released a single game, I'm inclined to believe you.

>>103966385
???

What's the best IDE for C++ on Windows?
Visual Studio or CLion?

>>103966383
I don't really care if people will play it or not. What's matter is to make something that I want to make. This business is "winner take it all", there's a very little chance to make any profit from it.

>>103966404
>This business is "winner take it all"
not really

Game jams produce very high quality games when people are told that they only have 48 or 72 hours to finish it. Some people in those jams don't use a prebuilt engine, and it doesn't stop them.
People who use prebuilt engines still use all the time they get. Prebuilt engine making it easier and faster to build a game is a fallacy, it's only complacency. Biggest problem with modern games is nocoders implement every feature under the sun in their shitty 2D no-game and they spend years working on them just to provide a sub-par sub 100 hour gameplay experience when a gamejam game has basically 1:1 ratio of dev time and player time spent on the game, lmao.
Clearly, limitation breeds innovation, and since no retard is limited by modern engines, we see that this thread is bare like my fields of fucks to give about nocoder screeching.

>>103966397
Visual Studio

>>103966424
>limitation breeds innovation
Having to program your own engine isn't a limitation, it's just you taking more time to achieve the same result
Also game jam games aren't good, at all

You will discuss any little shit just to avoid posting your game.

Ultimately you can use any language for your game, but imo you must accept one thing: aliased mutation is the root of all evil. If you're mutating some state, you must have only one pointer in existence that is used to mutate that state at any given time, even if your game is completely single-threaded

>>103966468
you're just posting garbage

>>103966451
This is what happens when threads are permanently up on this site. They turn into shitposting chatrooms instead of people talking about the thread topic.
Make the thread only twice a week and this won't happen.

>>103966525
you're free to leave, nobody will miss you

>>103966804
Has HDR proven itself to not be a short-lived meme (like 3D monitors were) yet?

Is there a book on writing an ECS implementation? I just don't get it, how the fuck do I implement queries?

>>103966917
If you have to ask you shouldn't be doing it

>>103966917
Define query. And not, I'm not aware of a book that will teach you how to do it.

>>103966842
i have no idea, if it was as good as they made it out to be, then surely it would be the default for monitors now

>>103966917
do hierarchical node-based architecture until you have need of ECS. "Data-driven architecture" might give you more hit on searches for literature.
>Queries
You want callbacks instead

When are you adding modding support into your game, anon?

I need 7 distinct dungeon generating algorithms for a 2D grid layout.


So far I've got Drunken Walk (with multiple drunks)

Ideas?

>>103967137
when? from the beginning

>>103967147
wave function collapse

>>103967175
how did you do it?

>>103966468
I'm an unironic hardcore rustfag, and even I disagree about that as a general statement.

>>103967676
>I'm an unironic hardcore rustfag
my condolences

What's the downside of writing a game in Go? Its GC is dogshit, but at least it's low latency and you can avoid memory allocations pretty effectively most of the time either way

https://hytale.com/news/2024/6/summer-2024-technical-explainer-hytale-s-entity-component-system-oPwpCAMdI
>uses ECS
>is in development hell for 7+ years
pottery

>>103965424
Only Frosch (or that other namefag if I'm mistaken) makes good OP for /gedg/, once some retard even posted P in OP image, and it got properly deleted...
--
SoA vs AoS (structure of arrays versus array of structures) discussion:
SoA is usually faster than AoS because it can (ab)use SIMD for storing pointers to the data more efficiently, causing less cache misses, it's a fact that no one can deny.
But what about the code? I think it suffers from a lot of blocks of (re/de)allocate, making refactoring more painful because you need to change more code, instead of 1 line in structure.
Imagine that you have a structure of 1 'int count;' and 30 dynamic arrays, you have to 'realloc' each of them sequentially, them same work for 'free', instead of single 'realloc/free' for AoS.

>>103968045
>avoid memory allocations
that's the downside

>>103967866
>>103968391
Rust is literally just fine, maybe not for game dev, but it works perfectly fine as a general purpose language

>>103968427
Don't reply to jakshitters

>>103968427
Pust is a terrible language overall, it's like mixture of JavaScript and Haskell, falsely claiming it's SaFe.

>>103968427
A language with a GC would be a better general purpose language than Rust's autism

>>103968452
GC languages are fine too, not saying anything against them, I use them myself when I don't want to bother

>>103968427
ha

>>103967147
Cellular automata

>>103965428
in release mode there are no allocations per frame, so gc doesnt trigger. in the video im also using 'latency mode' for the gc which triggers the gc all the time to try and reduce gc pause times, seems 0.5 ms is the best you can get out of it. Im thinking it might be better to just have the gc trigger often to try and keep the pause times around 0.5 ms rather than wait and batch and maybe get a 1ms pause time or worse. its annoying how unpredictable it can get. i've seen the gc perform better when there are alot of allocations because the gc gets very defensive and starts working more, i really only care about max pause times not average.

Hoping the dotnet time start working more seriously on reducing gc times, Capcom are using c# for their scripting workloads in RE Engine for the resident evil games and they have a talk where they mention their custom GC, Frame GC. which can mange thousands of allocations per frame with hundreds of thousands of managed objects and max out at 0.2 ms pause times.
https://youtu.be/fc3avwM-oTE?t=1494

>>103965509
allocation are 'fast' in c# because of the gc, its not going to the OS, just grabbing an already set pointer in a buffer, memory already pre-zerod. Its the deallocations thats slow (: ...off course its better to not allocate and c# has a bunch of tools to avoid this. its kinda funny since alot of c# game devs are super defensive about allocations they might end up writing faster allocation code than some might in other langs [:

not trying to start a language war, the lang doesnt really matter for what im doing, i like c# for the tooling and such. Havent found a lower level lang with as nice of a workflow but hopefully someday something comes along.

>>103969348
How do you debug GC?

>>103967147
https://www.roguebasin.com/index.php/Category:Maps
Or read up on dungeon generation strategies from specific roguelikes. I know Nethack has at least three (main dungeon, mines, Gehenna) and I think DCSS has a bunch for its various branches.

If you're okay with designing a bunch of pieces by hand:
https://nothings.org/gamedev/herringbone/

>>103969362
Use case of rendering at 120 fps?

I'm reading songs of syx source code, a city builder made in java which boasts the ability to perform pathfinding for more than 10k entities, and the source code is include in every release.
The engine does something weird, which is to pack a path into a single int array I suppose to save space by storing only the deltas in as few bits as possible. I suppose this is really needed for so many entities, but this is the first time I see something like this.

So what's the actual consensus on ECS here? I intuitively feel like ECS increases the difficulty of implementing game logic tenfold, but then how come it's shilled by everyone? How come Unity, and to a lesser degree, Unreal Engine decided to also hop on that train? Am I just a retarded 0.1xer or something?

>>103969987
its bait if you're making your own engine, it only works on big general purpose engines

>>103969987
It's very simple, there's a good video on it. Very good ECS can help you make a nice game (depending on lot of other factors).
Good (just good) ECS can break your game, so it's never finished, let alone average, bad or very bad ECS. Video in question:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxI3Eu5DPwE

>>103969348
such soul in this game

>>103970035
Name three (3) souls.

>>103970140
naraena, lijul, and mareis

which opengl version to target in 2025

>>103970270
4.1 cuz apple is a whore.

>>103969381
jetbrains rider has tools for finding allocations. if you wanna see the pause times run this code once per frame

https://pastebin.com/fkxpywb3

or this code for more info, including background gc timings, if youre compiling with AoT you have to enable this in csproj:
<EventSourceSupport>true</EventSourceSupport>

run by calling GCEventListener.StartTracking()

https://pastebin.com/heLhFpRK

>>103970270
vulkan

>>103966397
CLion

>>103970270
This may be a bait, but I'll bite.
It's best to use OpenGL 3.0 if you target post-2015 GPUs, and 2.0 if you want your game to be played everywhere (GPU wise).
If you really need some extension, you can manually "bind" it with Xlib, RGFW or GLFW, but you don't need most of them.
Tip 1: You don't need GLAD or other extension loaders.
Tip 2: OpenGL won't die because Vulkan came out.
Tip 3: OpenGL 4.5 is basically 3.0 with few minor improvements.
Tip 4: Fuck Nipple(tm), and everyone who s*ill it here. For real.
>>103970432
Vulkan drivers are shit on Linux, and they're not supported for older GPUs, I have old StinkPad, can't properly run Vulkan.
OpenGL was good until micro soft (penis) and other p*jeets got into it's important roles, ruining it completely, so Khronos gets $s.

Why is MSVC compiler so retarded?

>>103970502
do you know what the 1st 2 letters stand for?

How the fuck do I make a game without inheritance? I can only use interfaces, those can't have any data and can't have default implementations of methods. Unironically, what do??

>>103970667
For property data that I rarely access, I use dictionaries. For example, instead of making your vampire inherit from undead with the addition of an int bloodthirst; field, I have a Map<Entity, int> bloodthirst and I get the values from there.

>>103970667
composition, retard

>>103970685
>ECS but worse
lole

No game, no (you).

You're writing your game using C++20 coroutines everywhere, r-right??

>>103970955
Naturally. I came across a Vulkan repo that only used modules.

>>103970477
Post 2015 is OpenGL 4.6

>>103971026
very very frightning

>>103968162
>SoA is usually faster than AoS because it can (ab)use SIMD for storing pointers to the data more efficiently, causing less cache misses, it's a fact that no one can deny.
Whether SoA or AoS is better/more cache friendly depends enterily on what data you have, what needs to be accessed and how its transformed.
Storing position x,y,z in different arrays would be retarded for example.

Bumping and death implemented. Tomorrow, I'll redo my entity ID and visibility system to poll friendly entity data too (I was just consuming enemies, but this won't do). And the most awaited change: actual tiles.

>>103971089
>Storing position x,y,z in different arrays would be retarded for example.
There was a presentation of someone who made a a nes clone if I recall correctly, and he explained why it made sense, but I don't recall what the game was, let's see if I find it.

Not sure if it's relevant to this thread, but the biggest thing that is preventing me from making anything actually shippable is that I simply don't know how to make assets. Not 2D, not 3D and especially not music or sound effects, I can't do anything. Which creative skills specifically do you think I should learn to really start making games for real?

>>103971142
Alright, found it https://youtu.be/Hvx4xXhZMrU?feature=shared&t=580

>>103971210
Well it doesn't explain much, but I think the justification is, if you use a struct with a funky size, finding the index of an object will require a multiplication unlike simple datatypes of one, two or four bytes which the compiler will convert into bit shifting. I read one of the optimizations compiler do is add padding for this reason, but then this would increase the size of the struct.

Just got SA1-style palette based lighting (as in, the dreamcast version's palette-based lighting engine described in https://dreamcastify.unreliable.network/index.php/lighting-downgrades/) working in GLSL in under an hour, hell yeah

>>103966208
It's funny, andrew is so certain of his "warnings shouldn't exist" philosophy that it means unused variables are an error.
He's now wanting to introduce "a class of errors that can be automatically fixed", so the compiler/formatter/whatever piece automatically inserts

_=variable;

in the appropriate places if you want it to. This isn't implemented yet, of course.

>>103971260
>>511145642
stop double posting you attention whore

>>103971300
I don't mean to be an attention whore.

>>103967075
>You want callbacks instead
What are these?

>>103971372
that's when i finally call back your mom after she has been calling me for two days because she is horny

Regionization now works, now I need to fix the smoothing of some ridges, and off I go to add some color variety and better water.

Converted my game to use Entt (both ECS and its signal system), as well as made it less object oriented. Objects are still used, but the code is not oriented around objects.
Also made it render in 3D.
Gained about 250 FPS.
Much more to optimize. Currently all the tiles are drawn seperatly. I want to make every chunk (32x32 tiles) generate its own texture.

>>103971541
Currently tanks the performance when having a lot of chunks loaded at once.

Which books to read for game engine design and for making graphics that don't suck?

>>103971740
Game Programming Patterns

>>103971142
I mean it can make sense sometimes - especially for boolean/bit field type data - but if you're doing a position + velocity calculation you're always touching all coordinates, so in that case the most cache friendly is to have xyzxyzxyz... in memory.
Point is that SoA vs AoS is all about how the data is used, thats what 'data oriented' is about, you pick the one that actually optimized memory accesses, not just blindly picking one or the other.

>>103971872
I look like this and say this.

I have a few years of experience as normie programmer in higher level languages. Am I kidding myself if I attempt to make a 3D game using OpenGL and libraries to handle input and physics? No C++ experience, rudimentary grasp of linear algebra. I suppose just using GLM for math makes sense, but the rest I would like to roll myself. More interested in how this all works than releasing my game, which nobody is going to want to play anyways.

>>103972000
Not really, ask this anon to share his code with you >>103971661

>>103971151
https://opengameart.org/
Has lots of music and sound effects that seem decent. Also has a bunch of 2D art, but it's hard to find enough in a consistent style to cover your entire game. There's a 3D section as well, but I haven't looked into it at all.

https://itch.io/ has a bunch of nice looking asset packs if you don't mind shelling out a few bucks. I don't use these personally since they mostly don't respect my freedoms. Though I recently discovered that there's a category of "paid + CC", where you pay to download the assets, but you can freely redistribute them under a CC license once you do.

If you're okay with AI, https://www.pixellab.ai/ has some very impressive looking demos. I haven't tried it myself because it's botnet, but I'm hoping I can get one of the local AIs to produce similar results.

>>103972319
Is it really over for me if I want to make assets myself?

Hi /g/entlemen, can you kindly help me

https://inferno.colosim.com/

Can I play this RuneScape simulation offline using the github link provided there? If so, how? What programs do I need and what do I do with that code?

Please respond

>>103972433
have you tried reading the instructions that the github readme likely has

>>103972409
Oh sorry, I just assumed you wanted the quickest/laziest path to a decent looking game. If you're actually looking to git gud, I dunno what to tell you. Maybe >>>/ic/ ad/or >>>/3/ might have some advice for getting started?

Who's gonna write games in C++ after all the millennials retire?

>>103972512
It doesn't say
I think it assumes I have a degree in coding already and can work it out from cryptic code speak

>>103972591
AI overlords

>>103969987
It's shit
>it only works on big general purpose engines
doesnt work there either

>>103970667
why would you not use inheritance?

>>103969987
I find it makes it easier to organize your code. Don't really care about the performance gains or costs.

>>103971116
looks awesome! love the art style! it's like a gbc zelda game

What do you guys use for your placeholder graphics when making 3D games?
A fuckton of colored lines in a wireframe space or something?

>>103970477
>OpenGL 3.0 if you target post-2015 GPUs
More like post-2008 GPUs, retard. I hope you meant GLES 3.0. There was no reason to use opengl 2 even a decade ago.

>>103973263
> retard
Motherfucker, I do actually own 2 laptops, that support GL 2.0 maximum, and know few other people with same GPUs.
I don't mind newer GL versions, because I hate all of them equally, but I hate Vulkan more, because it's only for new GPUs.
Stop pushing consumerism, if a GPU works, there's no harm in supporting it, again, that's up to that other Anon to decide.

>>103973341
Fallback to software renderer

>>103973433
Fallback to text mode

>>103973433
>>103973444
How about you two fallback to MY ASS

>>103973341
desu it's better to use directx if you have openGL 2, it didn't have good drivers at that point

>>103973341
Not who you're replying to, but sometimes people need to remember that it's 2025. I'm not someone who keeps up with cutting edge hardware, and upgrades have felt less and less impactful unless you're doing le ebin 16k480FPS cypto-mining AI-slop-generating soiboy crap, but we're still talking about hardware that is essentially 15 years old.
It's getting more than more ridiculous to take this kind of hardware into account. Backwards compatibility is not free, and nobody is actually trying to play games on those computers, unless you're literally only making the game for yourself.

>>103973214
the minecraft 2x2 megenta/black/black/magenta texture

fallback to coding in MS paint

>>103973341
>I do actually own 2 laptops, that support GL 2.0 maximum,

Are you a museum curator?

>>103966105
>If you are making another 3D prototype in C++ congratulations, just don't sperg because people finish their games using lua or gamemaker.

Spidey senses tell me the next big indie IP is going to be made with Lua either Defold or Love

Youtube tutorials are not for me when it comes to learning to code. I was looking for books and found pic rel. Does anyone know if it's any good? or if there are better books?

Do any of you lads know how the fog is done in silent hill 2?

>>103972000
Start doing it. You will eventually grind your way to results.

>>103973341
Vulkan is 10 years old anon. Time to let go.

>>103970432
I'm already wasting my time by writing an engine, I'm not going to waste it even further by writing 5000 lines of code for just one triangle.

I experimented with some in-game interfaces. I would still need to increase font size and decrease scale for the camera group gl context to make it crispy (you're looking at 6px font I skewed). Also added tile painting to the in-game build mode.

>>103974822
If you can't follow Handmade Hero, it might just be over for you brother.

>>103977052
> Casey chad btfoing every Vulkun/OpenGL/DirectX good vs bad pleb
https://youtu.be/PZejeRCDT-M?t=6253

>>103976803
We can’t actually help you unless you’re doing modern shit

>>103977066
> an opportunity to see an industry veteran programming from scratch
> teaching how to think about problems
> teaching architecture
400 hours is nothing. You could reach Ep 250 in about 2 month, which is better than every book.

>>103977079
Watching 400 hours of tutorials is the biggest waste of time imaginable

>>103977098
wow

>>103977098
>>103977098
Watch the first 40 episodes and then continue if you really care. Don't just look at it on its face and decide it's not worth it in its entirety because it's long.

How do I make my game look as good as Unityslop at least?

>>103977366
By actually paying for a good artist. That's it.
https://youtu.be/qmEMH50TprI?t=267

Engine post processing means nothing if the art is dogshit.

>>103977309
it has a low density of useful information

>>103977575
> low density of useful information
Imagine being this naive.

>>103977603
Not as naive as a person who's watched 40 hours of tutorials

>>103977393
soul

struggled the whole night to get this fluid sim working and it looks like fucking SHIT

I want to mod a game called Holy Hand Device to decensor it.
yeah, it's a game about edging.
It's made using the kirikiri z engine. I attempted to dump it but the important parts are in Live2D, so no luck. I'm on the fence about turning on Windows Sandbox so I can try out some sketchy chinese tools.

I'm doing it. I'm caching hash map iterators with a constant risk of being rehashed.

>>103978121
use a large but constant size hash map?

>>103975023
Volumetric Fog. The one built into UE I believe.
Also they don't cull anything behind the fog, so the game renders a shit-ton of geometry that isn't seen.

>>103978131
For the shader uniform usecase I guess I could insert the keys upfront with blank or optional values and disable adding new keys. There's also a different problem, where the whole hash map can be destroyed and reloaded due to forced resource refresh, but my shitty solution deals with that too without any additional lifetime managing structures.
Also, parallel hashmap has a find implementation that accepts a hash value too, so I'll give caching just the hash a try for less spooky code.

>>103973214
I wrote my own 3d editor.

>>103978038
broken but cool.. the velocities are static i think they should be moving

>>103965985

minecraft
stardew valley
undertale
hollow knight
five nights at freddy's
subnautica
genshin impact

all games that even if you didn't play them everyone knows them. games that achieved cult classic status and made millions if not billions. all of these games use either C# or java. arguing about RAII and GC is midwit tier. people want good games they do not give a shit about what language or what memory management scheme you used. even if you write the most amazing handwritten assembly no one will buy your game if it's shit. and you are not making a AAA ultra-realistic game either or you would be using unreal.

>>103965878
hol up. are you making a semantic distinction between "allocate memory" and "write useful data to memory"?

>>103978612
not were getting somewhere!

>>103973151
This is from a real GBC game art, dragon quest monsters.

>>103973549
I haven't seen a single game in this general that would demand more than opengl2.0

>>103978731
Technically you don't need to actually allocate memory (in terms of calling malloc). You can get big chunk of memory from OS and then decide where in said chunk your data will be located. Just like people did back in 16 and 8 bit era. Your malloc is doing something like that too, make decision for you.
In level-based game you can allocate data using simple bump allocator and free all data by just restoring it's state. Maybe add some sort of stack of callbacks to free associated GPU resources. Add special scratchpad area that resets after each frame and you have cheap allocations (just atomic addition), no fragmentation and no leaks. Similar scratchpad for every thread in your thread pool. Minus: you can't use most of 3rd party libraries.
It should be foundation for any engine that dares to call itself "based".

>>103977393
Slop

>>103978766
People saying just use a memory arena for each level like they've fucking solved memory management really aren't thinking very hard
The issue with memory allocation is things that get allocated and deallocated during playtime

>>103978794
> The issue with memory allocation is things that get allocated and deallocated during playtime
No they don't. People are retarded. For example, consider a bullet hell. Where enemies spawn bullets, and they get deleted. At any frame, a thousands of these could be happening.

Now here comes the part where retards fail. What's the practical worst case of your game? If it is possible that few bosses manages to spawn 1000 bullets on screen. Then you just allocate 1000 bullets at startup, even if most enemies will spawn 10 or 20. Because the final boss will inevitably require 1000 bullets you aren't saving any space.

If you have any more doubts just ask.

>>103978794
Technically you can use block allocator for that. You can only have so many objects in your game anyway. Combine it with generation-based handles to address those objects. But you can't actually use OOP with it because memory blocks must be of same size. This approach has a bonus that you can say how much memory you use and for what.

>>103978835
What you're describing is called memory pooling and is what any smart allocator already does

>>103978835
Also this is why you get games like Legend of Zelda, where the game starts lagging when you have too much happening. They optimized the game for average case.

When you design for the worst case, you would calculate the highest amount of entities possible, and you make sure to reach the frame rate.

>>103978849
I don't know what you are trying to say. Be specific. "Memory Pooling", "Smart Allocator", etc. These words mean nothing.

>>103978895
If you don't know what they mean perhaps you shouldn't be speaking on this subject
People are talking about memory allocation strategies that are faster than malloc, like arenas per frame and per level
You aren't solving any new problems by suggesting this, the issue with memory management has always been with objects that have indeterminate lifetimes
A memory pool isn't really any different to malloc, and that's probably what malloc is doing anyway

>>103978760
Umm, excuse me, but it's all just pixels an the screen so literally everyone can just draw everything using the CPU.

>>103978924
You look like a vulkan enjoyer, let's see how intensive your game is.

>>103971116
remind me of the village bits from Star Tropics

>>103978913
That's exactly why I don't use these terms. There is no such thing as "Memory Management". It's like saying, you need "Math Management" for rendering. You have a well defined set of constraints and you solve the memory problem, just like you solve any other problem, like mathematics, conditionals, etc.

This same thing is happens with other things. Like wtf is a Hashmap Iterator? Why is it a general purpose term? Is it too hard to just say, iterate over the contents of the hashmap? And then these things, get blown out of proportion.

When I talk about memory stuff, I just say what I did. There is no general purpose lingo. Somebody asks me, how did I handle memory allocation in my compiler? I just tell them what I actually did.

>>103978961
If you don't understand what these terms mean just Google them instead of pretending to be smart

>>103978849
>memory pooling
He’s not describing memory pooling or smart allocation. He is just suggesting to malloc(1000, sizeof(struct bullet)) assuming this is always enough. (You still have to keep track of which indices are active at a given time, but that was already a problem anyway)

>>103978975
Unless you will only have 1000 bullets in total in your entire level then you have to pool them

>>103978975
> assuming this is always enough
No, your game always has a worst case. Maybe at certain bullet count your framerate starts tanking, which in theory could happen. So either you benchmark when that happens, and hard cap the bullets so your framerate is consistent. Or you just say, that bullets are capped to 1000. This is not assuming. Your code has to handle the case of what happens when somebody wants to create a bullet, and there are already 1000 bullets. You don't assume stuff, you handle it all the way.

One common strategy is, if the limit is exceeded use the oldest bullet slot as the newest one. Remember, this is not supposed to happen because you have benchmarked your enemies and bosses. So if you know that your bosses atmost spawn 500 bullets, just allocate 1000, and if for some reason even that fails. This is a bug on your part. But using the oldest bullet slot ensures that the game will not crash.

Bullet hell was just an analogy. You could apply this to any scenario.

>>103979025
You're overthinking a non-existent problem
When you need a bullet, allocate one. When you're done with it, free it

>>103979025
Writing robust software is easy, if you actually understand what the constraints are. This is why I always say: There are no exceptions! Every exception is just a condition that your program should handle.

>>103979033
> Overthinking
What's there to think about? Just write the simplest possible code.
> When you need a bullet, allocate one. When you're done with it, free it.
Again, be explicit. How are you allocating? How are you freeing it? It's like saying, just create a game. Yeah, everybody knows that.

>>103979067
Have you been diagnosed with autism or are you being obtuse on purpose?

>>103979076
I guess this conversation is over.

imagine allocating with new for 20 bytes of data

>>103979093
Malloc and free
This is the simplest possible code
Your pool of 1000 objects solves no problems and introduces unneccessary constraints

>>103979096
I really wish the schizo that's been plaguing this board would just buy a chair already.
I'm so insanely fucking tired of this topic coming up.

>>103979101
If it was him there would be more insults being thrown around

Guess which one is faster.

>>103979151
go back to your containment thread

>>103979151
> using a micro benchmark for testing memory throughput
lmao

>>103979160
>>103979158
Afraid of giving an answer and be exposed? Pss

>>103979176
Just wait till he realizes compilers can rearrange your code behind the scenes.

>>103979162
You wanna go that way? post the complete code, i.e, where are the definitions of _aos _soa?

>>103979200
Don't reply to him, he's a schizo

>arguing about optimization techniques (memory arenas, pools, ipc, soa vs aos, simd)
>thinking others in the thread don't know about these things acting like he's a 1000iq god because he watched a few casey muratori videos
>not realizing he's shit code (he thinks it's fast) will never be near the performance of industry standard engines like unreal and unity
>spends years of his life trying to win arguments against nobodies on the internet instead of enjoying his "game dev journey"

holy autistic retard. and the funniest thing of it all is that he thinks his game will sell well because it's fast. he genuinly believes perf == sales

>>103979229
> will never be near the performance of industry standard engines like unreal and unity
Lmao, every inhouse engine at every single AAA company is faster than Unreal/Unity slop.

Even nips have faster and better looking engines.

>>103979229
The funniest thing is when he acts like he's above it all and he's a real free thinker because he doesn't know what "memory pool" means

>>103979237
(you) can't do it though. not the performance nor the rendering capabilities

>>103979271
Anon, I am interested in creating game engines. I don't care about Physically based rendering, unless it adds anything to the gameplay.

>>103979287
What does bikeshedding about memory add to the gameplay

>>103979296
As I said, I don't even think about the concept of "memory management", "pools", etc. I tackle memory, just like I tackle arithmetic, game design.

casey and jon blowjob should be jailed for how many minds they poisoned

>>103979311
>I don't even think about the concept of "memory management"
So you weren't the guy posting paragraphs about your dumbass memory management scheme where you allocate a pool of 1000 objects?

>>103979314
Agreed but Mike Acton and his ECS shit was even worse

>>103979318
Anon, the whole point of that paragraph is that there is no such thing as managing memory. You handle memory, just like you handle every other aspect of your program. There is no such thing as dynamic allocation of memory.

>>103979314
>>103979326
And each of them, shipped something. Shocker!

>>103979330
>I'm not managing it I'm HANDLING it
Can you be any more obnoxious? Stop playing stupid sematic games. You outlined a memory management scheme, a ridiculous one that serves no practical purpose

>>103979336
Casey hasn't shipped a game

>>103979338
> semantic games
says the guy who uses terms like "pools", "free list", "memory management", "dynamic allocation".

>>103979347
Those are words that have meaning, you just don't know what they are, and apparently you're too narcissistic to learn

>>103979344
He worked on Witness, Jon's new sokoban game, worked at RAD. Not to mention, we have Sean Barrett the guy who wrote the thief engine, system shock engine.

>>103979364
Making a small contribution to a product doesn't count as "shipping a game"
Casey spends his entire life giving people game programming advice yet he has not programmed a fucking game

>>103979237
btw those "ultra-fast" engines all use C# with it's eeeeeevil GC for gameplay code. unity also uses C#. and unreal uses it's own flavor of garbage collected C++. stop listening to casey you dumb retard. also you dumb mongoloid nigger only think of performance you don't even think of things like fast iteration times being able to iterate on ideas quickly. (YOU) are not smarter than the industry veterans and they choose GC consistently time and time again

>>103979356
> you just don't know what they are
Anon, I don't need to use the term "free list", when I can just say, use a linked list to track and recycle stuff. Just keep it simple, there is no need to introduce retarded terminology for no other reason than to look more knowledgeable.

>>103979378
If you read your own fucking post you should see why we use terminology - saying "free list" is easier than explaining what free list means every time
If you don't know what a term means you can google it, I'm not using any complicated jargon, pull your head out of your fucking ass

>>103979376
Anon, are you really this dumb? "Title Code", it's the glue code which is not that much, it just interact with different subsystems, that handles most of the stuff, and when a new title need something complex, it is added as a new subsystem written in C/C++, and gets exposed to the "Title Code"

>>103979392
can you read?

>>103979390
A guy asks how do you handle so many entities in your game.
> just use a linked list to track and recycle entities
or
> use free list, when prompt what's that, proceed to explain the thing
Sure buddy.

casey and blow are faggots, nothing more nothing else
>but they shipped a...
no the witness is as much of a game as a fucking walking simulator is

Ok, I guess it is not worth waiting anymore

| Method  | Mean     | Error     | StdDev    |
|-------- |---------:|----------:|----------:|
| TestAoS | 6.750 us | 0.0119 us | 0.0105 us |
| TestSoA | 7.801 us | 0.0037 us | 0.0029 us |

>>103979414
I didn't say anything about a free list. I said use malloc and free. You know what those are right? You're saying "just do the simplest thing" but the simplest thing is using malloc and free, you're suggesting some dumbass pool where you can only have 1000 objects for absolutely no reason

>>103979427
But they did shipped multiple games though. And both of them earned enough money.

>>103979431
usecase?

>>103979427
Jon Blow is a good programmer, his opinions on programming are mostly sound, his opinions on everything else are crazy
Casey's the one who has crazy programming opinions, he also has not shipped a game (or anything really since he worked at RAD decades ago)

>>103979431
Anon, your benchmark is wrong. Nobody cares about it. You don't even know how SOA and AOS is even used.

>>103979452
Alright, and Jonathan Blow respects Casey as a programmer enough, to let him work on his games. Not to mention, several other people at rad recommend him.

>>103979456
Casey is a good programmer, he just has insane opinions which is why he should not be listened to because he'll lead you down a very stupid path

casey: shipped zero (0) games
jon blowjob: took 6 years to ship 1 game that could have been made in unity. now he's been working on another game for the last 10 years that also could have been made in unity

great track record from these "coding gods"

>>103979463
And why should I listen to you instead of him? I say his opinions are the best, and it will lead you to greatness? Your words don't carry weight anon.

>>103979468
Am I giving you programming advice?
Casey is telling you how to make games and he hasn't made a game. This is a fact, take from it what you will

>>103979456
>You don't even know how SOA and AOS is even used.
Post the right version then, but you won't.

>>103979465
>took 6 years to ship 1 game
That's already better than 99% of gedg and agdg combined. I am a blowfan now wtf.

>>103979237
Unity/Unreal are universal and have good tools. They aren't that fast. It isn't hard to beat both of them in simple task "push meshes to the screen and add some SSAO and bloom".

>>103979473
Anon, I can't just write a sloppy benchmark like you did. Writing benchmark takes time, specially the one you wrote. For example, you are not using AOS correctly, so it's by default wrong. But even if we ignore that, look at the code that's been generated. Your benchmark is invalid.

>>103979487
Don't reply to him, he's a schizo troll

>>103979483
Tell that to others. I already believe it's not hard to surpass unity/unreal.

>>103979487
I didn't ask you to post picture, I asked you to post the right AoS/SoA version. Do it or shut down your whore mouth.

>>103979499
> 10 years
> working 1-2 hours per day
Average, gedg tard can't perform basic arithmetic

>>103979506
that's still thousands of hours

>>103979516
Anon, do you really wanna die on this hill?
> 1-2 hours per day
> explaining everything while writing
> blackboard sessions
> switch to weekly instead of daily

That's 2-3 month of programming assuming you work 7 hours a day.

>>103979443
braid and the witness. am i missing anything else?

>>103979452
blow is just as much of a schizo programming freak as casey
blow is cant make games so he makes a toy language
casey cant make games so he cries about visual studio taking 5 seconds to launch

>>103979536
But each of them shipped stuff?

>>103979528
If he scope managed like a sane person he could have finished the project in a year or two

>>103979536
>blow is cant make games
He made Braid and The Witness, The Witness is an impressive feat of programming

/gedg/ just keeps convincing me that writing a game without using a premade engine is a meme after all

>>103979539
>>103979549
shit you could make in unity in a week and find on itch.io
nothing burgers

>>103979542
> If he scope managed like a sane person
He managed it honestly. He never compromised on the code. He work just like he would work on his daily job. He never dodge challenging problems, even when they were suggested by chat, and showed how to handle those too.

I don't know why people want him to finish Handmade Hero? Are you waiting for him to finish, to start? Everything is already there.

>>103979559
You could make The Witness in Unity but it wouldn't take a week

>>103979561
>He managed it honestly.
Are you crazy? He featured creeped it to hell and as a result he has no game after 10 fucking years. There is NO defending this, it's ridiculous. If he made a plan, simple 2D game, and stuck to it, it could have been done in a year. No "challenging problems"

>>103979567
why? because of the omg insane perspectives? its literally just dicking around in blender

what do you guys think about BYOND?
if anyone here is familiar with it (ss13 coder vets bros?)

>>103979559
Is this why those AAA games made in unreal are a buggy mess? They just want to code a game in 2 weeks and be done with it?

>>103979577
play it if you really want to know

How long until we'll get a game engine that isn't a retarded slop engine?

>>103979567
Sshh, don't tell him. He really thinks, getting stuff up on the screen = creating an entire game

>>103979577
Sure anon, make a witness in unity. You can take an entire year, working 30 minutes per day. But please enlighten us.

>>103979579
too many chefs spoil the food
>but small teams make shit too
yea well retards will never make anything good

>>103979582
i have and i was not impressed at all

>>103979588
i wont because im working on my own projects. but if you cant see how simple it is, then you should not even be here to begin with

>iteration times don't matter
>being able to hire people in the future don't matter (hint: AAA studios are throwing out their in-house engines because hiring unreal engine dev's is easier with less onboarding time)
>console support doesn't matter (you need special contracts with sony/microsoft /nintendo for your game engine to be able to make games for their console)
>mobile support don't matter
>web support don't matter
>PERF PERF PERF performance is the only thing that matters

what a retard

>>103979600
If you think the witness is simple then you didn't get very far
Some of the puzzles have complex implementations

>>103979610
Anon, I don't think he can even implement a line drawing console, that feels and looks as good as Witness.

>>103979618
which one of you two sucks his dick and which one his balls?

>>103979574
> he has no game after 10 fucking years
> which is 2-3 month of real developer time working 7 hours a day
What it is that you don't understand? The series at this point, shows that it's not hard to write stuff from scratch. A single programmer can get to that in 2-3 month working full time.

> has no game
Yeah, because he's not writing a game that can be finished in 2-3 months, like those retards on youtube making a Dragon Quest NES clone, on unity.

It was an educational stream, and the information is gold. You get to see inside knowledge of the industry. How easy programming is when you are actually programming.

>>103979653
I would suck your dick too, if you actually ship a decent game.

only threads with pointless argumentation get this many bumps

>>103979661
please dont give me your fag aids

Will you just SHUT UP and post your game? Post your fucking game, is that simple. No game posted, no reply for you. If you don't have a respectable product to backup your assertions, then don't waste me more time.

>>103979655
>The series at this point, shows that it's not hard to write stuff from scratch.
Really? I'd think that a series that lasted 10 years with hundreds of hours of content that ultimately resulted in barely 20% of a finished game would make it look hard to write one from scratch
Casey could have finished this project in a year if he did it properly - but he just did the series to fellate himself, not to help others or show them how to make games. Casey is not giving you inside knowledge. He's not in the game industry. He's a tools programmer who has barely worked on games.

>>103979685
not him
stop projecting, not everyone is here because they're making a game, im here because im making an engine

>>103979696
If you have nothing to show, then shut the fuck up. Is that simple. Nothing to show = waste of time = opinion irrelevant.
>Here is my hot take
Post your stuff then
>No!
Opinion discarded

>>103979713
Sorry I'm not going to post a screenshot of my game with every post

>>103979685
rate my polygons

>>103979718
Don't be sorry, is not my loss.

>>103979690
> in a year if he did it properly
More like, he could do it in a year, if he just take a template like Zelda, implement the bare bone version of it, call it done.

Meanwhile, handmade hero is driven by actual people wanting to learn. A guy asked him about screen scrolling, he added it because he wanted to show how to do it, in case you had to do it irl on some engine.

He could have just gone with ReadFile(Asset.bmp). But he goes out of his way to show, how to write an asynchronous asset system used in AAA games, just because people wanted to know how to write it.
The feature creep, is people wanting to learn more.

>>103979739
>The feature creep, is people wanting to learn
If you're an armchair programmer who just wants to fill your head with knowledge and not actually do any programming yourself or create anything then sure, I'm sure his series is wonderful

>>103979757
> who just wants to fill your head with knowledge and not actually do any programming yourself or create anything
there's literally an entire community called "Handmade", a guy wrote his own operating system, a guy is working on a file manager that are leagues ahead of others in the market, the guy who wrote Odin also learned from Handmade hero and still recommends it to this day.

>>103979739
>driven by actual people wanting to learn
keepp telling yourself that

>>103979779
Handmade Hero is a garbage resource for anyone who wants to learn how to make a game because Casey doesn't make a game and spends his time going on self-fellating tangents
The fact that he has a community isn't relevant to how shitty his tutorial series is

>>103979793
> anon doesn't know anything about mentorship
Go to university anon, you will fit right in.

>>103979801
A mentor is someone who helps you to do your best
Casey does not do this, he spends his time showing off his knowledge, nearly all of it will not be helpful to you

>>103979606
>AAA studios are throwing out their in-house engines because hiring unreal engine dev's is easier with less onboarding time
This is an actual tragedy, can this be reversed somehow? I feel like it will only get worse as the time goes on, can you imagine zoomers developing their own engine? I can't

>>103979821
>This is an actual tragedy
its not

>>103979821
>This is an actual tragedy, can this be reversed somehow? I feel like it will only get worse as the time goes on, can you imagine zoomers developing their own engine? I can't
Hopefully

>>103979814
but wont you please appreciate his encyclopedic knowledge of how many clock cycles an integer divide takes on his specific hardware

>>103979839
does it store its items up in that bodacious nose?

>>103979821
> can you imagine zoomers developing their own engine
Yes. It isn't that hard.

>>103979833
>>103979839
Why not, you want everyone to use Unreal?

>>103979907
Why does it matter what engine people use? If Unreal works for them it works for them

>>103979907
I want everyone to make good games, whatever the fuck they use as an engine.

>>103965424
>why did you let it die
I often purposefully refrain from making threads
to encourage engagement from others and to do a litmus test of whether a thread is needed enough to be up 24/7. A common pattern is that shit gets fucked during Euro hours.

>#241
> ___ edition

/gedg/ Wiki: https://igwiki.lyci.de/wiki//gedg/_-_Game_and_Engine_Dev_General
IRC: irc.rizon.net #/g/gedg
Progress Day: https://rentry.org/gedg-jams
/gedg/ Compendium: https://rentry.org/gedg
/agdg/: >>>/vg/agdg
Render bugs: https://renderdoc.org/
Previous: >>103929599

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i love you guys, never stop being autists about what someone else is doing!

>>103980097
just do it faggot

>>103979151
>% 2 == 0
The compiler will optimize this but I still don't like it ...

>>103980150
I'm doing it right now :D

i have a struct of arrays of s structs

>>103980181
weak i have an array of arrays of structs

>>103980165
I didn't know I had such a talent for it. NEW THREAD

>>103980272
>>103980272
>>103980272

>>103977052
My problem with video tutorials is that I need to pause it to see the code and that sometimes the voice of the person recording it is too distracting. Books are usually more suitable for me. Don't think it'll be different with this particular tutorial but thanks for the recommendation anyway I'll give it a go.

>>103973341
How the fuck? Do you live in Zimbabwe?

>>103977075
ok :(

captcha: RTXS8

>>103969701
like how windows register works?